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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 19 post(s) |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
4545
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Posted - 2014.03.28 15:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
In America, a city will try to boost its tourist income with a campaign to advertise why people should visit it.
Las Vegas is a city where prostitution and gambling are legal, and hence when people visit, they may get involved in some adult activities of the sort that they don't want to go home and tell everybody.
So Las Vegas has a slogan that has become a bit of a meme in America:
"What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas"
CCP's stance on that appears to be similar. What happens in this game should stay in the game.
And I have a hard time seeing why anybody could disagree with that.
Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
4547
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 16:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
DNSBLACK wrote:Zappity wrote:Trebor Daehdoow wrote:I have refrained from public comment on this issue because of all the ongoing CSM/CCP consultations, but now that CCP has issued their statement, I feel it is only appropriate to give my perspective.
Lying, cheating, general douchebaggery and the harvesting of tears are all part of the "sandbox" that is the game of EVE Online.
But that said, all of us have a responsibility to recognize when a fellow player is starting to lose emotional control -- when things stop being a game -- and respond in a humane manner. And deliberately trying to induce and deepen that loss of control is reprehensible conduct that should shock and dismay the vast majority of the community.
So the tl/dr for me is: Feel free be a douchebag inside the sandbox, but if you kick the sand outside of the sandbox, don't be surprised if CCP kicks you out of the sandbox as well.
Stuff like losing your sh*t on comms and bitching out the people in your fleet is not something I would worry about. Nor is making people sing for their ship.
But if you make someone sing for their ship and then sadistically wratchet up the psychological pressure until they are a total wreck, then you're a real-life scumbag, and I won't shed a tear if CCP decides they no longer care to do business with you. I support this position. Also well written
That IS well-written. The wording alone tells me I should stick to comic books. 
Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
4549
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 17:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:Sturmwolke wrote:CCP Falcon wrote:
CCP, in collaboration with the CSM, have agreed and would like to state in the strongest possible terms and in accordance with our existing Terms of Service and End User License Agreement, that real life harassment is morally reprehensible, and verifiable examples of such behavior will be met with disciplinary action against game accounts in accordance with our Terms of Service.
Good post, but I'd like a clarification on "disciplinary action against game accounts". Does this constitute all known accounts held by the player? or just a single account? There's no single rule for that, it's always a case by case decision based on internal guidelines and precedents.
Ok you see something right there that I must point out.
The people who would have the most trouble with "case by case" would be my fellow Americans. You see the non-education system is full of people who set out to destroy the jury system. The original jury system in America had the "power" to "judge both the case and the law". This meant that the jury has (or had, before everybody was convinced otherwise) the ability to say that in a specific case the law may or may not apply or that the actions of a defendant or belligerence of a plaintiff are justified or not.
This is gone now. America is all about "min max" to ensure a system of control. Hence our prisons are filled with people incarcerated for years over victimless crimes because of "mandatory sentencing" and that judges give juries "rules" to follow. If an educated juror informs the judge that these rules hold no weight, the juror gets kicked out at least or charged for contempt at worst.
(and I've been thrown out of juries for bringing this up - it's the BEST way to avoid jury duty: by sticking up for the jury system in our corrupt courts)
So, anything that's considered "case by case" in American culture causes people to go into seething rages because the first thing they think of is the "all white jury" concept, which they were indoctrinated into living in fear of in school. They were never told that in these past cases of "all white juries" it was in fact a deconstruction of the original intent of the jury system, NOT a problem they need to be brainlessly twitter hashtaging about.
For that matter, a jury of one's peers was denied but in the railing against this implanted fear, a jury of one's peers is exactly what ends up being denied to many defendants.
(the same trendy sort falling into this trap would use the word "irony" at this point).
But the bottom line is that the best justice is in fact resting on the judgment of a specific case and the rules involved PER THE CASE. We have had decades of "because of this ruling then, therefore the ruling has to be that now or else everybody is a racist/bigot/homophobe if they don't agree" and now our prisons are overcrowded (and full of the very people that these ideals claim to protect. ).
So to see that CCP goes on a case by case basis is a good thing, which as owners of this content they also have every right to do no matter how many agendized players rail against it on the forums.
Hopefully my fellow Americans can embrace this concept as it was in the foundation of our jury system long ago.
Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
4551
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 18:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:I guess If I have a question for CCP.
Where exactly is the line? The line is where they decide to draw it. Their game. Their rules. Remember how cranky all the noob gankers got when CCP refused to state a specific line? They are being smart here. If they declare a line, then some psychopath will figure out how to weasel around it. CCP is making the right call. Mr Epeen 
I agree with the internet ***** on this.
For a lot of people, and that "certain" kind of player for whom if I use that "path" word they flock to rail against (doth protesting too much?) gaming around a given line of conduct IS there game and it would not matter if this was internet space ships, or cars, or even an MMO version of angry birds or something - they will find ways to greif and act coy about it trying to turn the blame on everybody else.
CCP leaving the line open and not clearly defined keeps that certain kind of player in check.
Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
4552
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 18:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kristalll wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
I agree with the internet ***** on this.
For a lot of people, and that "certain" kind of player for whom if I use that "path" word they flock to rail against (doth protesting too much?) gaming around a given line of conduct IS there game and it would not matter if this was internet space ships, or cars, or even an MMO version of angry birds or something - they will find ways to greif and act coy about it trying to turn the blame on everybody else.
CCP leaving the line open and not clearly defined keeps that certain kind of player in check.
Except nobody knows what part of the Bonus Room was the issue (assuming Erotica WAS banned). There are lots of things VERY similar that don't differ in any meaningful way that are regular occurrences throughout New Eden.
Right but the property owners don't care. They have established what is acceptable and if an issue is raised they will judge the case given the existing evidence (the case) and the existing rules (the law).
Now I know the socipaths are going to be angry for a bit and I already see people saying they are going to petition every little thing.
Therefore let me offer my time and services to CCP in this thread in helping with petition reviews. I know that small minority is going to try to make themselves look like the entire player base with mouse clicks, so dumping their petitions may well be enjoyable knowing what kind of people are sending it.
Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
4556
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 19:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
As I predicted, the weaseling segment of the community wants a clearly defined line (to circumvent) and CCP is showing pure genius in not providing one and stating intent to judge each case individually.
(Thereby causing much grief to those who want to cause much grief)
That segment of the community cannot claim that CCP is not in touch with them. Heck they should be saying "ah well played, masters." and move on.
Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
4559
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 19:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:I thought the point of this game is that there are no real rules.
That its all grey area? The point of the game is that it's also supposed to be a game.
Yeah. A game about space ships, not gaming the rules.
Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
4559
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 19:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:As I predicted, the weaseling segment of the community wants a clearly defined line (to circumvent) and CCP is showing pure genius in not providing one and stating intent to judge each case individually.
(Thereby causing much grief to those who want to cause much grief)
That segment of the community cannot claim that CCP is not in touch with them. Heck they should be saying "ah well played, masters." and move on. You won't be so happy with those unclear lines when you give an offhand remark and get banned because the person you said it to has a sad.
I'm sure there will be legions of the weasels out there, smitten over this whole matter, looking for every little thing to report.
Just like the tanking of industrials and removal of insurance payouts have people resorting to bumping.
I was going to use the word "butthurt" but I know someone would use that and cry homophobia. You see, the environment you describe, I already worked in that environment, surrounded by charred (can't use the word "blackened" because someone will scream racism) little souls using the system as their personal weapon for every little thing. Lacking skills and any real intelligence, it's all they have. It's their form of miner bumping.
Maybe I just won't talk to anybody - oh wait, there's only like 7 or 8 people in the whole game that I talk to already. No problem.
(And when I'm in fleet, I never talk - I listen to the FC - problem still solved)
Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
4559
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 19:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:I'm listening to the recording myself and this is VERY analogous to a few of my own experiences of gank victims I've invited onto coms and tried to calmly explain why they lost their ship. At what point in that person's rage is it me harassing them? I think it is clear from the very fact that you raise the question that (a) your intent -- to explain, not to abuse -- would be obvious and also (b) you would have the presence of mind to recognize that you weren't helping and end the conversation. As anyone who has started a petition knows, EVE GM and Community Reps are battle-scarred veterans with hearts of coal, their bodies increasingly deformed by the horrific demands of their jobs (CCP Guard, for example, was over 2 meters tall when he started at CCP). You would have to work hard to convince them you are a blackguard worthy of banishment to the outer darkness (ie: World of Warcraft or Hello Kitty Online). Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Trebor, is freedom of speech inviolate or are you one of those that believes in 'hate speech'? I do not agree with the concept of absolute free speech (for example, the right to shout "Fire" in a crowded theatre, or incite a crowd to violence); rather, any limitations on speech should ideally be limited to those intended to prevent harm and encourage rational discourse. I recognize this is a horrible grey area, and that well-intentioned people can disagree on where to draw the lines. Regardless, you -- as a staunch defender of absolute free speech, no matter how much it hurts -- will have absolutely no problem with me making a statement of my position on the harrassment opinion. Quote:At it's core Sohkar willingly took part in a bonus round on Teamspeak (and hung in there) in the context of EvE meta gameplay, in pursuit of moar EvE assets (or their recovery). That is IN GAME Trebor. I beg to differ. IMHO, Sohkar was psychologically trapped -- read up on concepts like sunk costs -- and his tormentors took advantage of this. EVE is CCP's game, and they set the rules of what is and is not acceptable in-game and in its penumbra based on their business interests -- as a believer in absolute free speech, I am sure you also believe in pure laissez-faire capitalism. If you don't like it, you are free to stop doing business with them. But you probably won't -- your own sunk costs will keep you playing, despite the agonizing existential despair you must now be feeling. Feel free to prove me wrong by quitting -- in which case, can I have your stuff? 
That's it. I'm an infinite monkey compared to this wit and prose. Where did I get sick and lose that ability to zing people on their own points like that?
That's one of the best posts I ever saw. My faith in CSM is restored somewhat (though I still take a dim view of the form of collectivism that emplaces them).
Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
4561
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 20:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
The mental gymnastics in this thread are incredible.
To call some of these people "greifers" may be incorrect. I think we're dealing with fetishists.
I know they want a wordy, well written, concrete, chiseled into stone "ruling" on this matter so they can do what? Do everything to circumvent it. And when they find another Sohkar and get the same results, they'll throw the rules up and hide behind them when they get called out on their actions.
The line in the sandbox being vague is of no surprise, but this debate rests on something that people lose a grasp on. People want an actual "letter of the law"?
Well there's an old saying "The spirit of the law saves, the letter of the law kills".
There are many laws out there of which the spirit is simple to understand but when you get into semantics fu and wording wars, trying to change the definition of "is" for example, the same law can kill.
See as how the constitution of an entire country, written 200 years ago to protect freedom, is now the very document the denies it (and then legalizes the methods of denial) after 2 centuries of amending, word games, lawyering, and lobbying, should be enough to show how CCP's handling of this matter is very intelligent.
Not only have they engaged this matter in the best way possible, but left it wide open so that the "game the rules" crowd is left in check by their own gaming the game mentality. Of course the statement that CCP will judge matters on a case by case basis is not enough with this crowd!
Schr+¦dinger's cat comes to mind.
Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
4564
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Posted - 2014.03.28 21:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
This thread is proof that no matter how many times and how hard you explain simple things to some people, they, wanting things to be a certain way, will never reach an understanding.
I expect to see someone post of video of themselves holding their breath and stomping their feet.
Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
4569
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 21:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
Well one thing I can take away from all this: seeing what goes on with that miner bumping crowd answers the question I had the day CCP allowed us to abandon wrecks, also known as "blue-ing wrecks".
That day the feature was added I thought "what are all the ninja looter/wreck/can flipper/baiters going to do now?"
Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
4571
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 22:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
Well.
I think the topic is done with.
CCP stayed to their doctrines and within their established powers regarding the intent and purpose of their game and property. They have successfully protected it from an attack this week.
CSM showed their worth in this process and I am left rethinking my attitude about them.
Grief fetishists are sent a message while nobody's ganking/piracy/stealing/scamming playstyle is being changed or threatened (except in the minds of grief fetishists who use said activities as their "vehicle")
Well done. I think CCP and the CSM has earned their pay for the week. I take my leave to now consume fermented hops in mass quantities knowing that the game I care about will survive this, and that in spite of a small minority of people who could use some help, still has the best player base with some of the best people you could ever meet (and shoot - in game of course). Even the players I don't like, who have peeled my ships like bananas, I still hold in high regard.
Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
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